What did you discover? What was most helpful to think about? And what books have you read that you consider excellent examples of particular point of view choices?
I liked the idea of using a baton, whether visual or auditory or some other sense, to clue the reader that you're passing between POVs, or between time periods.
In thinking about 1st person plural narrators, I thought of Justin Torres's remarkable novel, "We the Animals." He starts in "we" then switches to something more like close 3rd. As discussed, it does feel like that "we" is more than the sum of those 3 brothers. From the first page: "We were six snatching hands, six stomping feet; we were brothers, boys, three little kings locked in a feud for more." (Interesting that he calls them kings, as if he narrator is toying with that notion of the royal "we.") Then at the end, "we" becomes "they" as the narrator, or the character, ultimately divides himself from his brothers.
I'm especially interested in the way POV creates (or minimizes) narrative distance. My first novel was single POV in close 3rd, and my second novel was dual timeline, with the present timeline in first POV and the past timeline in close 3rd (I had wanted to try omniscient, but it wasn't working). The novel I'm about to write will have three POVs, but after hearing Michelle's story I know I won't be writing all three in first person. :) I'll probably do serial limited third person. In any case, these chats have definitely provided food for thought!
Serial first can be done, but yes, it's so much more difficult to get right. Serial third is far easier, simply because the voices don't have to be SO different from each other. Good luck!
The Topeka School is a brilliant novel with multiple points of view. Can't recommend it highly enough: an accessible but intricate novel by a master of the craft.
I loved the concept of POV as the way you deliver information to the reader -- it's quite obvious but pushes you to consider POV as a tactical choice and not just a creative preference. I also was really encouraged by the discussion on omniscience; I've always found it very intimidating (and thus avoided it) but having it broken down more clearly makes it feel more accessible.
Bunny by Mona Awad is a great example of first person plural ("we"). A significant chunk of the book is written from that POV (the rest in first person singular) and the switch to "we" serves a specific narrative function as it reflects a major turning point in the plot progression and character development.
Great point about Bunny!!! I loved that chilling transition to “we,” but I think the fact that I barely remember it speaks to how seamlessly integrated it was into the plot and character evolution. So good!!
I was struggling with the narrator/character separation in the middle grade novel I am currently writing. It was very helpful and affirming to hear guests and you talk about how there is less narrative distance expected in a kids' novel, because that was my sense. I kept trying to create it, but it wasn't right. Very freeing.
The conversations confirm my understanding that nowadays one can take liberties with POV, but you can also get in trouble doing so. Lincoln Highway by Amor Towles has serial points of view, some 1st person, and some 3rd. So does Maggie Shipstead's Great Circle. These are both wonderful books, but I'm not quite sold on alternating 1st and 3rd. I find it a bit jarring. I think serial 3rd person limited is great.
Oct 25, 2022·edited Oct 25, 2022Liked by Michelle Hoover
I realized that POV is a powerful contract with the reader, and switches need very careful handling. This helped me make sense of a Hank Ryan novel I recently read. The first person narrator was the murderer, but you only found out in the last pages. I was fascinated by the trick (well done and memorable), but also felt like it wasn't quite fair. Of course, it was fair, but not expected.
Hi. Last week I was in California and did my best to follow on the recordings. This was difficult. So I struggled with what I felt was an abstract conversation. I am currently using close 3rd and 1st for 1 character in a multi POV novel. This is going fine, as the characters are very distinct. At first I questioned the rationale of so much 3rd, but when I read the Underground Railroad, I saw how effectively Colson Whitehead used it to control his narrative, which teems with characters.
I'm sorry it felt abstract to you, but yes, looking at actual book samples is always best. If you really want to knock any preconceptions about pov rules out of the park, try Penelope Lively's Moon Tiger. It will knock your socks off.
This was a great week! As a writer, I’m a big fan of serial 3rd and am working on a project right now with my main protagonist as the close 3rd and two supporting characters as the roving serial close 3rd supporting povs (main character is mom of 40, then we also have her daughter of 11 and daughter’s camp counselor of 22). One serial 3rd book I adored and hold up as a model of everything is Rebecca Makkai’s The Great Believers, which I feel like has been mentioned a few times.
As a reader, I LOVE reading a good funny, dispassionate, flawed first person narrator (tho I’ve also struggled to write well in a fictional 1st— the A/N/C merge is real). Some faves are My Year of Rest and Relaxation, Motherless Brooklyn, and I’m currently laughing my way through Elif Batuman’s The Idiot. That dry humor just wouldn’t be the same in 3rd person!
Thanks for another really amazing week of listening!
Happy Hour by Marlowe Granados is a great example of strong first person voice with clear A/N/C differentiation. It does some fun things with verb tense too.
I liked the idea of using a baton, whether visual or auditory or some other sense, to clue the reader that you're passing between POVs, or between time periods.
In thinking about 1st person plural narrators, I thought of Justin Torres's remarkable novel, "We the Animals." He starts in "we" then switches to something more like close 3rd. As discussed, it does feel like that "we" is more than the sum of those 3 brothers. From the first page: "We were six snatching hands, six stomping feet; we were brothers, boys, three little kings locked in a feud for more." (Interesting that he calls them kings, as if he narrator is toying with that notion of the royal "we.") Then at the end, "we" becomes "they" as the narrator, or the character, ultimately divides himself from his brothers.
I'm especially interested in the way POV creates (or minimizes) narrative distance. My first novel was single POV in close 3rd, and my second novel was dual timeline, with the present timeline in first POV and the past timeline in close 3rd (I had wanted to try omniscient, but it wasn't working). The novel I'm about to write will have three POVs, but after hearing Michelle's story I know I won't be writing all three in first person. :) I'll probably do serial limited third person. In any case, these chats have definitely provided food for thought!
Serial first can be done, but yes, it's so much more difficult to get right. Serial third is far easier, simply because the voices don't have to be SO different from each other. Good luck!
The Topeka School is a brilliant novel with multiple points of view. Can't recommend it highly enough: an accessible but intricate novel by a master of the craft.
I loved the concept of POV as the way you deliver information to the reader -- it's quite obvious but pushes you to consider POV as a tactical choice and not just a creative preference. I also was really encouraged by the discussion on omniscience; I've always found it very intimidating (and thus avoided it) but having it broken down more clearly makes it feel more accessible.
Bunny by Mona Awad is a great example of first person plural ("we"). A significant chunk of the book is written from that POV (the rest in first person singular) and the switch to "we" serves a specific narrative function as it reflects a major turning point in the plot progression and character development.
I love Bunny! Thanks for this Tiffany.
Great point about Bunny!!! I loved that chilling transition to “we,” but I think the fact that I barely remember it speaks to how seamlessly integrated it was into the plot and character evolution. So good!!
I was struggling with the narrator/character separation in the middle grade novel I am currently writing. It was very helpful and affirming to hear guests and you talk about how there is less narrative distance expected in a kids' novel, because that was my sense. I kept trying to create it, but it wasn't right. Very freeing.
The conversations confirm my understanding that nowadays one can take liberties with POV, but you can also get in trouble doing so. Lincoln Highway by Amor Towles has serial points of view, some 1st person, and some 3rd. So does Maggie Shipstead's Great Circle. These are both wonderful books, but I'm not quite sold on alternating 1st and 3rd. I find it a bit jarring. I think serial 3rd person limited is great.
I learned about POVs I wasn't aware of .... fascinating and informative. Thanks!
I realized that POV is a powerful contract with the reader, and switches need very careful handling. This helped me make sense of a Hank Ryan novel I recently read. The first person narrator was the murderer, but you only found out in the last pages. I was fascinated by the trick (well done and memorable), but also felt like it wasn't quite fair. Of course, it was fair, but not expected.
Hi. Last week I was in California and did my best to follow on the recordings. This was difficult. So I struggled with what I felt was an abstract conversation. I am currently using close 3rd and 1st for 1 character in a multi POV novel. This is going fine, as the characters are very distinct. At first I questioned the rationale of so much 3rd, but when I read the Underground Railroad, I saw how effectively Colson Whitehead used it to control his narrative, which teems with characters.
I'm sorry it felt abstract to you, but yes, looking at actual book samples is always best. If you really want to knock any preconceptions about pov rules out of the park, try Penelope Lively's Moon Tiger. It will knock your socks off.
This was a great week! As a writer, I’m a big fan of serial 3rd and am working on a project right now with my main protagonist as the close 3rd and two supporting characters as the roving serial close 3rd supporting povs (main character is mom of 40, then we also have her daughter of 11 and daughter’s camp counselor of 22). One serial 3rd book I adored and hold up as a model of everything is Rebecca Makkai’s The Great Believers, which I feel like has been mentioned a few times.
As a reader, I LOVE reading a good funny, dispassionate, flawed first person narrator (tho I’ve also struggled to write well in a fictional 1st— the A/N/C merge is real). Some faves are My Year of Rest and Relaxation, Motherless Brooklyn, and I’m currently laughing my way through Elif Batuman’s The Idiot. That dry humor just wouldn’t be the same in 3rd person!
Thanks for another really amazing week of listening!
Happy Hour by Marlowe Granados is a great example of strong first person voice with clear A/N/C differentiation. It does some fun things with verb tense too.